I’m happy to announce that Augie Hicks is the winner of a copy of Ann Everett’s humourous mystery Laid Out and Candle Lit, in a random drawing of those leaving comments. We’re going to give a copy of Cleansed by Fire in the near future.
It seems that the last few weeks, I’ve gotten a lot of questions on critique groups. Some of the ideas floated were really good. Some – well, some not as good. So, let me give you my take on critique groups. Much of this is from experience with critiquing.
First, is it a large or a small critique group? The guidelines are basically the same, but in a larger group these need to be followed a bit closer.
The basic rule is to remember that people are critiquing the piece you wrote. They are not critiquing you. That may sound simple, but in practice it sometimes gets lost. Some people will tend to take the critique as a criticism. And sometimes, it is taken as a personal attack. So, keep it fully in mind: they are not criticizing you, they are commenting on how this piece of writing affected them.
The second rule is that you do not have to agree with the comments, nor do you have to follow the advice. But, and this is important, you should consider each comment carefully. You should try to see if it makes sense to you. Do not immediately write it off. If, after careful consideration, you do not think it is appropriate for this piece of writing, then dismiss it.
Do not defend your work during the critiquing session. Our natural instinct is to defend our “baby,” to explain why the critique missed the point. Don’t do it. If you need to explain why you are right, do it after the session is over. My favorite approach to these sessions is that the person whose work is being critiqued doesn’t say anything during the critique of his or her work.
If some background is necessary to understand why you have written this a particular way, give that at the beginning. And, make it brief; under a minute.
If the group is not too large, it helps to provide each person a printed copy of what you are reading. It is not uncommon for the author to read something different from what they actually wrote. I’ve read things with a word missing, but my mind knew the word was supposed to be there and supplied it as I read. And if I misuse words, like “your” and “you’re” , it will never show up as I read.
On the other side, if you are doing the critiquing, remember it is best to start out with something positive. Surely there was something in the piece that was good. Then, proceed to ways to improve the writing. Remember, a critique session is about improving writing.
Do not ask the reader for an explanation during the session. You can ask her for an explanation after the session is completed.
Be specific. Saying “That scene sucks” is not much help. Saying you didn’t feel the panic or terror or romance (whatever is appropriate) is better. Saying “Show, don’t tell,” gets the idea across. But how much more help would it be to give an example. “You said the man was tall. How about something like, ‘Willie had to duck his head when he came through the door.’”
Be brief. Keep your critique short so other people can speak. If, after everybody has had a turn, you still have something to say, take a second turn – if there’s time.
Set time limits – on each read, each critique, and the total length of the session. If it is a large group, you might want to have a timekeeper and enforce limits strictly.
Those are some of my ideas on setting up a critique group. Some people like a small group, maybe four writers. Some like a larger group so you get a wider variety of opinions. Each has its advantages. You have to find what works best for you. But, in either case, you need to be with writers who are serious about improving, who want constructive criticism, not just a pat on the back.
Critique groups work. They can make a big difference in your improvement as a writer. I once knew a man who had published dozens of books in a particular genre. Then he decided to write in another genre. He sought out a critique group to help him learn how best to work in this new area.
We’re never too good that we can’t improve.
Hi Jim.
Well, I think you know I belong to an on-line critique site. I love it. Not only do I get honest feedback…because these folks don’t know me from Adam, so they don’t have to worry about my feelings, it helps me to see how others critique.
As writers, we learn from reading other authors, as much as we learn from workshops, instructional books, and critiques. At least I do.
In order to receive feedback, you must give feedback. Sometimes I find it painful. I’m currently reading and critiquing 14 novels on the TheNextBigWriter site. I have OCD, so once I start a novel, I can’t drop it…no matter how bad it is. I’m compelled to finish anything I start and believe me, that’s a bad thing when you’re reading novels. However, if I offer one thing to an author, and they tell me how much it helped them, it makes it all worth it in the end. Plus, I love getting a chance to read new talent.
I agree with you. Regardless of taking part in an on-line or local group, I think everyone should. Take or toss what they offer. In the end, it’s your story and the only one who matters, is your editor…and we don’t always agree with them!!
Great article with lots of good info.
~Ann
Thank you Jim and everyone else before me who commented, I’ve learned a lot just by reading them.
Thanks, Jim, for this informative post. I am wondering how a beginner can locate a newly forming group?
Good points, Jim. One of my biggest frustrations as a writer is finding critters who are insightful, skilled, and brave enough to rip up my work. Writing is often more collaborative than we would like to admit, and a good CP is an invaluable find for a writer. As an editor, I’ve found that a few clients won’t talk to me after I critique them, but most say they are grateful for someone who tells it like it is. I know some writers who believe a CP’s role is to only provide the basic feedback—I liked this and didn’t like that—but I fall into the camp of believing that offering specific suggestions and alternatives can be a powerful tool. This DOES NOT mean that the writer has to follow them. But I think it can give them a jumping-off point.
Thanks, Lisa. I will get my name on it today. And your other comments on the groups are excellent. You must find the right group. Nothing about this writing business is cookie cutter simple.
Thanks, Jim for posting this. And may I recommend you please put your name at the top of your blog? Even though it’s your web site blog, if you give out the direct links, I don’t know whose blog I’m on (And I’m going to rush over and check out my web site blog right after I finish my comments.) I’ve been the problem child in a few groups too; my first group dumped me when I got my first contract with Barbour. As I began to get more contracts I wondered why I should stay in groups, but eventually went back as a sort of a mentor, and sometimes gain real gems of insights from baby writers who are really studying how I do things. Eileen’s right; I spent years unlearning things that inexperienced critters drilled into me when I was too fresh to know the difference and took every word as gospel. Although I have outside readers who aren’t writers for my work, it’s crucial to get several opinions, and people who are learning to write will provide the odd diamond or pearl. Plus I’m helping others avoid getting and giving less than stellar advice and growing my fan base.
I’ve only been in crit groups online through ACFW. I’ve found some people do only say nice things. But I’ve come across some great people who’ve helped me push myself to write better. I’ve appreciated all the crits I’ve received, but these are the ones I look forward to the most.
I’m curious why a published author would be in a group with unpublished writers. How does this benefit them? I know in tennis you always want to play somebody better than you, but in golf it doesn’t matter. So what about crit groups? Does it matter?
Thanks! I enjoyed your blog today!
Jackie
Great topic, Jim, and timely. I’ll meet with my new, small workshop-of-peers tomorrow for the second time, and I’ll bring along your blog. I’m busy marking up their work today and I’m sure they’re marking up mine. I’ve been without a critique group for awhile so I hope this one works out. I don’t mind honesty and open discussion; I don’t like nastiness and preening, One of my first experiences in a writing workshop was back in the late 1970s, at the New School in New York City with Anatole Broyard, book critic of the New York Times. I’ve always called him the Don Rickles of writing instructors and am sure many people left his course, never to write again.
I love to reread Flannery O’Connor’s collected essays, Mystery and Manners: Occasional Prose. This is from her talk entitled “The Nature and Aim of Fiction,” which all your readers may be familiar with and, if not, I highly reconmmend:
She provides some wisdom on what we need in a critique group in addressing students in a course called, “How the Writer Writes:
“I believe the [writing] teacher’s work is largely negative, that it is largely a matter of saying, ‘This doesn’t work because …’ or ‘This does work because …’ The because is very important. The teacher can help you understand the nature of your medium, and he can guide you in your reading. I don’t believe in classes where students criticize each others manuscripts. Such criticism is generally composed in equal parts of ignorance, flattery, and spite. It’s the blind leading the blind, and it can be dangerous.”
This quote has helped me so much, as a writer, teacher and member of member of a small critique group. I quote it to my writing students sometimes, along with other of O’Connor’s sassy, insightful remarks.
I’ve no doubt your focued critiques are the reason. Would that more people would/could critique well.
I would agree with several of the comments, and with the post in general. I’ve been in a number of critique groups, and most were disasters. Say nice things about someone’s work, and they will say nice things about yours. And that doesn’t get us anywhere. I want one thing from a critique group – constructive brutality. If I want something else, I can show my book to my mom. I’m fortunate now to work with a small group of writers who can be honest, and who understand that the goals of a critique group are necessarily different from that of a book club.
William Doonan
http://www.williamdoonan.com
You go, girl! I love a troublemaker and only wish you were in my critique group. I’m usually the only one to speak up and tell the truth. Guess what? The worst writer in the group finally got published. I give all credit to my spot-on critiques and suggestions. 😉
Thanks, Jim, for this nutshell blog on critique groups. I belong to one and it has been very helpful to me. I side with Sunny when she says that many people in them don’t want to publish, they just want to read their work out loud. These people drive me nuts. I’m there to learn something and improve my writing. I’ll use your blog as a guideline for my group. One in our group is always defending her writing during the session. Maybe she’ll read your blog and get the hint. I’m also going to post it on my FB page. It’s worthwhile.
Marta
I appreciate your comments – and your posting on your FB page. I hope this helps your group. I’ve been in a group (briefly)where – as you said – they just want to read their work out loud, to have a captive audience. Sift out those who really want to improve their writing and form a new group.
Jim, I participate in a small group with four members and an occasional guest. I agree with your approach. To me it is best if you have at least one professional writer in the group so that the session isn’t just new writers sharing their ignorance.
And the chemistry o9f the group has to work. Writers can give each other the straight scoop without being mean about it. But the scoop does need to be straight. No one learns if everyone pulls their punches.
Your blog site looks great.
SW
An experienced, professional, good writer in the group is a big help. A couple, for different points of view, is even better. And you’re right, no one learns if everyone pulls their punches. Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
There’s a lot of truth in what you say, Sunny. That’s why I wanted to emphasize that it is not to get a pat on the back, but to get solid suggestions on how to improve your writing. Too many groups are really just a forum to perform. So you want a group that is interested in improving their writing skills. The right critique group can really help. But many are more about ego. Pick one carefully.
Having been thrown out of (ahem) three critique groups, I feel that most groups are amateurs helping amateurs with no intention of going further than reading to each other. Out of all the groups I’m temporarily been in, I continue to be the only one to achieve publication. In fact, every time I get tossed out for my honest remarks (and I don’t mince words) my career has soared to the next level.
The ones who do listen to me go on to win awards for short stories and money. I must be doing something right but it’s taken all wrong.
The only one I need to please anymore is my publisher. And myself–and I’m my toughest critic.
Jim,
How true. “We’re never too good that we can’t improve.” And, critique groups can certainly help us do that if we keep the points you mentioned in mind.